A new day dawns
Whether you agreed or disagreed with the nation's choice of Barack Obama as our next president, there's no denying it was a landmark event in American history. Here are a few thoughts on the just-completed presidential race:
- A few reasons why Obama won: He appealed to people's better instincts and their hopes for the future; he never lost his focus during the long campaign (whereas McCain always seemed to be looking for a new strategy); George Bush; the economic meltdown.
- McCain made one classy concession speech Tuesday night. Had he taken that tone throughout the campaign, perhaps the outcome would have been different, or at least closer. And I don't make much of the people in his crowd booing Obama. They just went through a very tough campaign and a crushing setback.
- Sarah Palin, ultimately, was a drag on the Republican ticket. She's a person of average intelligence, limited knowledge and seemingly no intellectual curiousity. That's fine, but she shouldn't be one heartbeat away from the presidency.
- Making Joe the Plumber out to be some sort of American hero reeked of desperation by the McCain camp. The fact that Joe turned out to be a dolt didn't help.
- As the campaign wound down and the McCain and McCain-related ads became more and more off-issue and attacking, McCain increasingly came off as an angry old man.
- The world will look on us differently now that our "First Family" is a black family. And it will be nice to have little kids in the White House. It's the first time in my life that the president will be younger than me. It's the passing of a torch to a new generation in politics.
- I was sad that the forces of hate and intolerance carried the day on the California gay marriage-ban proposition. The actions by the religious right sure don't reflect what I think Jesus would do.
- People speak of Barack Obama as being nothing but a guy who looks good and makes great speeches. That's ridiculous. He's clearly a brilliant man, and sometimes, when our country is in deep trouble, we need a leader with charisma who can inspire people. See Jack Kennedy and Ronald Reagan.
- I turned on conservative talk radio in the car today, and the people calling in are still calling Obama a Muslim and a communist and claiming he was born in Kenya. There are lots of angry, stupid people in our country.
- The Republican Party has to decide which fork in the road to take if they want to reclaim power down the road. Do they continue to be held hostage by the religious right? I don't think that's the path to victory. They might do better by reclaiming the party from the fringe elements and reviving the concept of Rockefeller Republicanism; in other words, liberal to moderate on social issues and conservative on economics. Example: One of my favorite public servants, Sen. Olympia Snowe of Maine. Another example: Tom Ridge.
- Finally, in the words of Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" For those who supported Obama, this is not a time to gloat. For those who supported McCain, it's time to give the other guy your support and give him a chance to implement his policies. If they don't work, you get another chance to vote in 2012.
Labels: Politics
posted by Brant at
2:22 PM
144 Comments:
Very good points. I could not have said it better myself.
(but that's why you are a journalist & I'm an accountant, lol)
You're right that the angry, ignorant and intolerant will not go away. One dolt on the P-G election blog intimated that the bomb threat that closed Clairton schools today was "just the beginning" of what those nasty blacks are going to do from now on.
Just goes to show you that all the book learnin' in the world can't help some people.
One of my co-workers at the newspaper is an older black lady. She's one of the finest people I know, worked hard all of her life, still working hard despite health problems that would probably put me in bed for a month. She raised three fine sons, despite losing her husband many years back. Never in her wildest dreams did she expect to see the day when a person of her color would be elected president. To see what Tuesday night's election outcome meant to her brought tears to my eyes. Barack Obama may or may not be a great president, but his election meant a great deal to a great many people.
Ignorance, bigotry and bias in this country is about as American as apple pie. Sad to say but people have not proven me wrong, white, black or in between. You have great points Brant and I am glad that you always speak the truth. Today is a good day.
It was a real goose-bump moment when the networks showed the celebrations in Chicago, NY, Washington and other places without commentary for about 10 minutes. One French newspaper editorialized today that Obama's election is the best worldwide event since the fall of the Berlin Wall.
--Brad Hundt
This should be a sobering experience for the Republican Party, but it's not a fatal blow. Remember, just four years ago the Democrats were trounced in the White House, Senate and House races. That arguably made the Dems rethink how they operate. It's amazing how quickly the tide turned, and America will be watching to see how the Democrats perform over the next two years. Otherwise, they will pay in 2010.
-maj
Oh, one other thing. DId everybody see that dress Michelle Obama wore last night? I think she has a very good style sense, but that was truly hideous. I don't expect her to dress like a schoolmarm (Laura Bush), but a little more elegance and a little less freak show would be nice. Gee, maybe I could take over for Mr. Blackwell, now that he's dead. Of course, some one would just point out that my entire wardrobe consists of khakis and ugly shirts. Sadly, it's true.
Michelle's dress was in keeping with the red & black dresses of her daughters and I had no problem with it. Beat the hell out of Nancy Reagan.
I have to admit that I -- a 59-year-old white male -- had tears in my eyes last night as well. I was very surprised by how emotional it was for me. But having lived through the '60s and the assassinations of JFK, RFK and MLK and the '68 Chicago Democratic convention, I guess I should have expected as much. It has been a long time since I felt that America lived up to its true promise, despite men on the moon and all the other amazing technological advances we've made. I was too young to vote in 1968 and watched the debacle of the 1972 election with disgust. I was apolitical for years after that -- it took the 2000 election to actually make me think that my vote was important. It was wonderful last night to see that so many first time voters felt the same way.
I was deeply moved at watching so many African-Americans weep at the news that Obama had won. As a white American, I grew up believing anyone could be president, never realizing that view was not so universally held. Now it is. I am very, very proud to be an American, to live in a country where anything truly is possible.
You are wrong Brant, Jesus would not condone gay marriage, did you ever hear of Sodom and Gomorrah? Also God created man and from mans rib became woman, he did not create two men or two women. Love the sinner but hate the sin.
Brant I thought Michelle's dress was unique. I liked it. She looked beautiful and so did the girls. I can't wait to see what the First Lady is going to be wearing for the inauguration of her husband. This is very exciting.
* Legalizing same sex marriage is rather discriminatory, is it not? If gender requirements can be changed then why not the number? 1 man, 2 women. 1 woman, 3 men. Numberphobes!
* Not everyone can be president - we've never had a woman. More than half the country must still be pissed off.
* Clearance Thomas, Condi Rice or even Colin Powell would not have elicited tears and goose bumps. Why is that?
* The one thing we may learn from an Obama presidency is that a black guy can screw up the country just as much as a white guy.
What is the deal with everyone talking about her dress? She's dressed conservatively, not like a hooch, so who cares.
It really amazes me....we want Obama for his intelligence, his record, his strength, etc. but the woman? We just care about how she's dressed.
Give me a break.
"Clearance Thomas, Condi Rice or even Colin Powell would not have elicited tears and goose bumps. Why is that?"
Because they were appointed or nominated... not voted for. 64 million people said "I want HIM"... that's different than 1 guy saying "I want HER" and then a few other guys saying "ok"
To the person who questioned my suggestion that Jesus would not agree with discrimination against homosexuals: First, I would suggest you reread the Biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah. If you think it's primarily about the evils of homosexuality, that's a woefully inaccurate and narrow interpretation. Also, if you want to base your life on the Old Testament, you also should get busy gathering rocks to execute homosexuals, those who work on Sundays, etc. According to the Bible, Jesus said nothing - not a single word - about homosexuality. In Biblical times, nothing was known of sexual orientation. We have gained quite a bit of knowledge since that time. I like to apply knowledge in my daily life, but perhaps you would rather avoid it and cling ignorantly to the contents of ancient scrolls - picking and choosing, of course, which edicts you can comfortably follow. And that bit about hating the sin but loving the sinner? That's hogwash. When you practice discrimination and condemn people for their sexual orientation, you are hating those people. The world has changed greatly in the past 2,000 years. Unfortunately, the minds of some people have not. You can cite chapter and verse where your Bible tells you that homosexuality is wrong, but in your case, I think Shakespeare had it right when he wrote (in "The Merchant of Venice") that "The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."
A few observations:
White guys have been screwing up the country for 200+ years. We haven't learned a thing from that fact.
If a male presidential candidate wears a lousy suit and has unshined shoes, no one cares.
Since 1988, just about half the country has been POd after every election.
I'm with whoever said: "Make it harder to get married and easier to get divorced." But only in reference to heteros.
I think Colin Powell's election as president might have raised goosebumps IF he was not associated with Bush & the Iraq war.
After 8 years of Bush it's hard not to gloat...they certainly gloated when Bush won twice. I'm so delighted that the American public made the right choice this time. Obama finished FIRST in his class at Harvard Law... he's much more than a guy who looks good and delivers a speech. He's also taught constitutional law for 10 years at the Univ. of Chicago. The man has brains - and he is pragmatic and has good sense. If anyone can lead us through the myriad problems this country has, he can.
Anonymous said, "You are wrong Brant, Jesus would not condone gay marriage, did you ever hear of Sodom and Gomorrah? Also God created man and from mans rib became woman, he did not create two men or two women. Love the sinner but hate the sin."
I think it's sin to formulate all of your opinions from a book of stories such as the bible. For instance, if I read "Snow White" too much maybe I'll start fearing short people? It's the same thing, a story. I think it's a sin to hate. I think it's a sin to choose ignorance and social blindness. Brant is correct, Jesus says nothing of discriminating against homosexuals. Anonymous, do you still believe slavery is right because it most certainly exists in the bible? You can help break the cycle of hate that keeps Americans from truly being equal. What other caveats do you have for what makes a person pure and not a sinner? I challenge you to open your heart and educate your mind. Do something socially responsible instead of trying to teach discrimination which stops positive progress. "Yes we can!"
Does Jesus love homosexuals? Absolutely? Does He love their sin? Nope. He hates their sin, just as He hates mine. Love the sinner, hate the sin.
Brant, I find it uncanny that you feel you can quote the Bible for your own purposes, but when someone else does you tell them
they are interpreting incorrectly, picking and choosing scripture, etc.
I would like to know exactly what Bible training (M.Div. etc.) you have that makes you an expert. You seem to know that everyone else is misquoting, and mis-interpreting. It's funny, I think there are many who believe YOU are the one misinterpreting scripture.
You see, I don't fancy myself an expert on the Bible, unlike some other folks who think they have the market cornered on interpretation, or, if it suits them better, literal acceptance. I seek out the interpretations of others who are much more learned than me. And I still think you're wrong, sickeningly wrong, to condemn and discriminate against people because they are different from you. You can recite your little "hate the sin, love the sinner" mantra all the live-long day, but you're really hating the person when you treat them as a second-class citizen. It's also interesting to me that Christians allow some Bible passages to fade away because they don't fit into our modern, more civilized age, but they cling to others, just as outdated and hateful, like they are pieces of wood in the ocean after a shipwreck. And I don't think I'm alone in not getting on board with your concept of a "hating Jesus." He seemed like such a nice, accepting fellow, at least in the book I read.
Brant, you are the one who is so closed minded. Why is it that God created Man and from Mans rib he created woman, like I said if he wanted two men to be together then he would have created two men. My faith is in God not in people. I dont hate a person because of a choice that they make is not one that I believe is right actually I dont hate anyone. So get yourself in check Brant and until you have walked in my shoes dont say that I hate someone just because they have different views. I really do feel sorry for you, I dont understand your hatered for God but none the less I will say a prayer for you.
The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. -- Catechism of the Catholic Church
"In a similar way, Sodem and Gamorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.....Jude 7 Or do you not know tht the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Do not be decieved; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals nor theives, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the Kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6 9-10 But the good thing is that God is a forgiving God.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME HOMEOSEXUALITY IS A CHOICE, IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU ARE BORN WITH!!!!! WE ARE BORN WITH CERTAIN SKIN TONES AND CERTAIN HAIR COLOR AND CERTAIN EYE COLOR NOT SEXUAL TENDENCIES. IF GOD CREATED PEOPLE TO PREFER THE SAME SEX THEN HE WOULD HAVE JUST CREATED US ALL THE SAME SEX, HE CREATED MAN AND FROM MANS RIB HE FORMED A WOMAN BECAUSE ADAM WAS LONELY AND WANTED A COMPANION, HE DID NOT CREATE ANOTHER MALE HE CREATED A FEMALE.
Brant,
A troll, perhaps, on your site?
I think the bigger issue here is the number of people who believe the literal interpretation of Genesis... If some won't even accept that the world is >6,000 years old, how should we expect them to consider biopsychological sexual biases? Folks, that whole "rib" story is complete fiction, and the fact that I had to state that is sad.
Maybe to you the whole rib thing is fiction ellipses. But to those who do actually believe in a higher power known as God that the bible is not fiction. Maybe you should get off of your power trip. I truely feel sad for you, you are so close minded and you have to take jabs at religion and the people who believe in God because of your own insecurities as a human being.Maybe you should have a little respect for those that do believe in God. Like I said come down off of your pedestal because you are above no one.
I'll just consider some of these recent comments to be additional reasons why I would never want to be associated with some of the strident, empty-headed, angry people who have the nerve to call themselves Christians.
I am not angry Brant I just find it ridiculus that you and ellipses think that your views are the gospel and that everyone should hold you in the highest regaurds because of what you say. So please tell me what comments of mine offended you? Because all of yours offend me which is why I do not associate myself with atheists.
To the last anon... I am perfectly willing to concede the possibility of God... For example, Aristotle make a wonderful case for the existence of a prime mover... However, it's not a matter of BELIEF regarding the age of the earth... It's a matter of simply KNOWING.
God... maybe.
Christian/Jewish/Muslim God? Probably not.
-ellipses
The majority of my friends are Christians. However, there are a great many Christians I find fault with because I think they use their "good book" as a way to discriminate against others. I have friends who are Catholics, yet I hold in great disdain that church's policy against birth control in a world burdened with overpopulation, and I don't think much of their belief in treating women as second-class citizens. I just said over on the daily O-R poll that atheists don't hold bake sales. In other words, we're not trying to raise money to spread our non-religion to the masses. We don't care if you join us. We just want to be left alone, and we don't want this country, yours and ours, to be turned into a theocracy.
If God knows all, why didn't he know that Adam would be lonely and create a woman from the get go? Many have tried to separate the fable from fact in the Bible, and I've yet to see anyone who can do it with complete accuracy. The Great Flood? Yes, there is evidence that it happened. Noah's Ark? No evidence that I've seen. Since God made Adam from dust (so we are told), why did he have to take a rib to make Eve? Did he lose the dirt recipe? The rib theory neatly provides an excuse to say that women are inferior to me & somehow beholden to them for life.
If homosexuality is a choice, I think a hell of a lot more men and women would be gay just to keep from dealing with the opposite sex, which is a pain any way you look at it.
About the only choice in religion is what you choose to believe.
Thank you bible-thumping freak. Since you firmly believe in the literal interpretation of a book, I will do the same. Like anonymous earlier, I'm going to reread some fairy tales. Maybe even Lord of the Rings. Does anyone know where I can buy a ticket to middle-Earth. I hope Amtrak goes there? Call me at 724-555-5555
There we go again bible-thumping freak. So who are the ones who ridicule? Those who find insecurites with their own life. I am secure in my life and what I believe in I dont need to go around name calling.
to the person who there is no evidence of Noahs Ark. There does not have to be evidence, it is call faith.
Then if no evidence is required, only faith, your religion is no more or less plausible than that offered by the Muslims, Mormons or Scientologists.
I saw Noah's Ark with my very own eyes at Kennywood. I didn't ride it though because I have a pretty seak stomach.
If God is love what else do you need to know? Love EVERYONE.
Weak stomach is what I meant to type. Why do I skip such easy mistakes on my posts?
The devil made you do it.
If conversion to Christianity doesn't improve a man's disposition and actions, if he continues to be just as judgmental, contrary, snobbish, spiteful, hateful, to others, he certainly is not bearing good fruit. Christ told us to judge a tree by its fruit. Certainly there are bad Christians. And that gives grounds for Brant's complaints and sadly, his skepticism about Christianity. A bad Christian thows doubt on the truth of Christianity. Greg is absolutely correct about loving each other. "Whoever loves his brother lives in the light and so there is nothing in him that will cause someone else to sin. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness; he walks in it and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has made him blind." And if one is particularly insightful, that verse gives guidance and instruction to those of the same sex who love each other.
Bible-thumping freak! Does the truth hurt? Perhaps you were the one of the school bullies making fun of those that weren't like you or those you founding threatening. If you are going to stand by your great "book" with such vigor, stand up for something real to beat issues like homelessness, cancer, HIV and child abuse.
I can almost hear the negative, discriminatory response from you already.
it's fitting that the final words on this original post were "can't we all just get along"
Separation of church and state? Let's move forward with a new biblical phrase. If we band together with enough cash we can amend the bible like the constitution. "Love the sinner but hate the bigotry." Has a nice ring to it, right?
I believe in a god. I believe that it's possible that god could have handed down his (I use the male gender generically) word through the gospel writers. But I also believe that god's word was corrupted, embellished and changed when it was in oral form, and that after it was written down, the editors and translators changed it to suit their own purposes and agendas.
If you believe in an all-knowing, all-powerful god, it becomes very hard to explain why, as the author said, "bad things happen to good people."
I believe that god created the universe and stood back. It is painfully obvious that god doesn't reward the righteous all the time -- devout Christians die of cancer; babies are stillborn. Try as I might, I see no "master plan" that ties up all the good and evil things that have happened in the world since the dawn of time. I cannot see the common thread that explains why 350 men, women and children killed in an airline crash died at the same time, or to what purpose.
I have been told that god will beat you down to the point where you have no place to turn except to god. I don't buy that. I think that it's part of the overall patriarchal view of scripture that was instilled by the men who assembled it. I also think that the view of "god as daddy" is an attempt by humans to explain why things happen in the context of a setting they can understand -- that of the family. I lost all my money in the stock market, so god must be telling me to put it into bonds. Just like dad grounds you when you're bad, god spanks you.
When you start reading certain things as signs from god, you tread on dangerous ground. God sends you a woman who you adore, so you marry her. Ten years later, a woman you adore even more appears. God must have sent her, right? So why did he bother to send the wife? Testing you? Must be a slow news day in heaven.
I don't think god takes your money, makes you have an affair or puts his hand on the steering wheel of a loved one and steers that person into a tree just to make a point. I think he's above all that.
I think God created all of us -- including homosexuals -- and knew what he was creating. It's possible that some homosexuals do indeed choose to become homosexual. But I also think it possible that there are valid psychological reasons why these urges are hardwired and can't be resisted.
In short, I believe that if you don't believe that "with god, all things are possible," then you don't have much of a god to believe in.
But what I believe even more strongly is that is doesn't matter a rat's heinie what I believe or what you believe. There is more than one way to god. And I'm not the first human to feel this way.
Conflicting belief systems can co-exist. It's our refusal to admit that fact that makes life harder than it should be.
Very nicely said.
Bible thumping freak?
Interesting. My question is this...
Muslims kill homosexuals. Do you call them Qu'ran thumping freaks?
Of course not. Because then, you would be 'intolerant'. But it's ok to be intolerant and even hostile toward Christians.
And Brant, you said, (a few posts back) that you think I hate homosexuals. You don't even know me, and you make that judgement. But you think I'M judgemental?
The definition of hate is to feel hostility or animosity toward, and the definition of hostility is a hostile state, condition, or attitude; enmity; antagonism; unfriendliness. So, yeah, I'll stick with my opinion of you as a hater. And let's remember that you're the one who said Jesus hates their sin, so the concept of a "hating Jesus" is yours. If a Muslim discriminates against a homosexual, they are equally reprehensible in my eyes. And, interestingly, black people are less likely to be accepting of homosexuality than whites, so the same black voters who came out in droves to support Barack Obama were - at least in part - responsible for the California vote to ban gay marriage. I'm pretty sure that's going to be overturned in court, and I'll laugh heartily about the Mormons, Catholics and others who spent all those millions on Prop 8. I'm sad that the supporters of gay marriage had to spend millions to defend people's equal rights. It's a shame that's necessary in 21st century America.
So then what about the scriptures that lists the things God considers abominations? (PS That means, hates.)
It's not MY version of a 'hating Jesus'. He hates no one. Just the sin. Read up on it. You might learn something. Lord knows, you need to.
Brant,
I'm a Christian and I do not look down on you at all for being a homosexual.
If you have to thump a holy book to make your religion palpable, it ain't much of a religion.
Dear Jfrompt,
Is it OK with you if I marry another man? Of course, my wife might have a problem with that. ;)
Brant
The Bible says that since God loves us, we should love one another (EVERYONE).
One thing is for sure, we all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God (Romans 3:23)
But the good news is that we can have forgiveness for our sins through the blood of Jesus, the Christ. (Romans 10:9) That if anyone confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart that Jesus is the Christ, he shall be saved.
Jesus loves each one of you so much that He died for you to be a sacrifice for your sins (and mine).
God bless everyone of you, and I pray that if you don't know Jesus and have a relationship with Him, that He will reveal Himself to you in a mighty way. :o)
"That if anyone confesses with his mouth and believes in his heart that Jesus is the Christ, he shall be saved."
How about 1 out of 2?
That's the dilemma... I am absolutely incapable of the second requirement.
There is a beautiful note from a person towards the end of other page "election, part 3". This personal snapshot of the traditional family is truly moving. As a christian, I am so moved and know this experience is far more common than the "almighty heterosexual" will admit. I have seen it myself and it makes me question years exclusion and judgment my "good" faith preaches. I still do not understand why our religious leaders are afraid social progress. Basing nearly every social decision on what Jesus supposedly said or what the devil made me do just sounds preposterous. Moving forward, I am going to make an effort to make change. Regardless of the long, world-wide history of hate and discrimination, I'm going to do my own small part to turn this around.
One person at a time. That's how things get better.
"As a christian, I am so moved and know this experience is far more common than the "almighty heterosexual" will admit. I have seen it myself and it makes me question years exclusion and judgment my "good" faith preaches."
It makes one wonder how you believe yourself to be a christian.
Is it because you were born in America? Your parents are christians? You go to church? None of that matters. You can go to McDonald's and it doesn't make you a happy meal. If you don't believe the Bible and the words of Jesus to be true, how can you say you are a Christian? It's not my intention to sound hostile, I'm just asking.
There is a verse that talks about 'christians' who are luke warm. The Bible says the Lord will spit them out of His mouth and say depart from me, I never knew you.
Should christians be intolerant and look down on homosexuals? NO! Absolutely not. But legalizing their sin is not the answer either.
There certainly are other sins that are legal... even sins that are considered greater than that of homosexuality...
"But legalizing their sin is not the answer either." Who actually has the audacity to write this stuff? This sounds completely absurd. Did Elizabeth Dole write that?
So, am I going to hell because I'm Jewish and not Christian? Will my kind, gay sister who adopted a Katrina orphan burn in the depths of hell? Will my strict, go to church every week, Catholic husband who beat me to an inch of my life 3 years ago go to heaven? Will you, one human being with the hubris to judge who's too Christian, not Christian enough, too this and too that, go to heaven? At the end of our life are we graded on a curve?
That's interesting... I was anticipating a certain response... and part of my smartass answer was going to be: Does your God keep score?
As I've said before, nobody lives his or her life in total accordance with every verse of the Bible. Christians already pick and choose which edicts they're going to follow and which they find out of date (like killing people who work on Sunday). But a whole lot of them seem to cling to the few verses out a million that speak about men lying down with men, etc. You have to consider the times in which these books were written. Some of us have come a long way since then. And, again, according to the Bible, Jesus said nothing, not a word, about homosexuality. He was, based on my readings, a person who reached out and accepted those who were looked down on by the general populace and was much unlike the Old Testament God who was really big on torture and hellish violence, whether to simply prove a point or smite enemies.
"He was, based on my readings, a person who reached out and accepted those who were looked down on by the general populace and was much unlike the Old Testament God who was really big on torture and hellish violence, whether to simply prove a point or smite enemies."
You are 100% correct. Look at the Samaritan woman at the well. No one else would even speak to her, but He reached out to her. Just as He reaches out to everyone. We can come to Him 'just as we are'. But we can't stay that way. We can't cling to His righteousness and still cling to our sin. Homosexuality or otherwise. We ask him for forgiveness. To repent means to do a total 180 and go in the other direction.
To the lady who asked if she was going to hell .... that is not anyone's judgement call but God's. But He makes it very clear in His Word how to get to Heaven.
No our lives are not graded on a curve. It's not how MUCH sin we've committed or how many great things we have done. It's all about Jesus and His sacrifice for us, and what we choose to do with it. I wish you many blessings.
I notice that you avoided commenting on the part about the Old Testament God who seemed to have a taste for torture and bloody mayhem. But that's OK. I'm just curious. Do you believe that if they meet all the other "requirements" for entry into heaven, homosexuals who are sexually active will get in? Just asking for your opinion, not a "that's God's decision" response.
I believe that all of us get 'stuck' in some sort of sin and keep committing it no matter how hard we try. Should we do a 180? Yes. But we don't always to that. Although I do know people who have turned from their homosexual lifestyle.
If a homosexual believes in Jesus, that He is the Christ, and has asked Him into their heart. (Romans 10:9) then yes, I believe he/she will go to Heaven. Again, the Bible is clear that it's not about how good/bad we are, but about accepting Jesus into our hearts for forgiveness of sins.
I believe that it will be surprising to us who goes to Heaven (oh those people are terrible, etc.) and some who end up in hell (but they went to church every week and they were so kind). In the end, it's all about what we choose to do with the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.
Who knows, maybe you'll be surprised and meet me in Heaven. I know I'd be REALLY surprised to be there. ;)
Phew, thank you. I'm a gay Methodist and a follower of Jesus...I was worried that I wouldn't go to heaven. What about my Buddhist neighbor?
He's F*%#ed
:-)
That's wrong, Ellipses, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, at least. The Church casts no one in hell, and particularly those that never had an opportunity to know Jesus. Every kind gesture we perform, our goodness, virtues, and charity, whether Buddhist, Muslim, Protestant, or whatever, even a tribeman in Africa, can be traced back to its Source, our Lord Jesus Christ.
So according to the Catholic church everyone is going to Heaven?
Nope, but there are those theologians, such as Von Balthasar, who believed that there is at least 'hope' that everyone will end up in Heaven. Then, again, there is Purgatory, which is an entirely different topic. Nobody spoke of hell as often as Jesus, so it is a very real entity, if you put any stock in the Gospels. At the risk of sounding like a tent evangelist, we must truly be sorry for and repent of our sins, because death is like a thief in the night -- we don't know when we will stand before the righteous Judge.
1. I was joking
2. This is the beginning of a conversation that will easily last another 70 comments :-)
So we're back to if a gay person is not sorry about having homosexual sex and has not begged forgiveness, they're going to hell? There seems to be a lot of difference of opinion among the religions and their adherents about who goes to heaven and who doesn't. I know some so-called Christians who firmly believe that Catholics, Jews, heck, anybody except Christians, are doomed to the fires of hell.
What matters is not what other people think, but about what God thinks. The Bible is pretty clear.
I can say "Well I believe the world is square because that's what I heard." But the truth is, the world is not square it's round. It's only in the realm of religion that people say there is no absolute truth. Of course there is. Just because someone doesn't believe in hell, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I can say, I don't believe in Phoenix, but it's there.
So if it only matters what God thinks, why do so many people go around professing to know exactly what the Big Guy wants and trying to discriminate against others while also trying to impose their beliefs on the rest of us? Just asking.
If you were on a plane on your way to California to see your friends, and you were SO excited, and you just HAD to get there....but the plane was really going to Georgia...wouldn't you want someone to tell you you had gotten on the wrong plane?
Again, the Bible is pretty clear about what we need to do to get to Heaven, and Christians feel it is our job to relay that truth to others. It's wrong to look down or discriminate against people...we should love them with the love of Christ.
Ok... and if 30 people said the plane was going to Georgia, 30 people said it was going to Houston, and 30 people said it was actually a boat... who would you believe?
I think I'd believe the Pilot.
"It makes one wonder how you believe yourself to be a christian.
Is it because you were born in America? Your parents are christians? You go to church? None of that matters. You can go to McDonald's and it doesn't make you a happy meal. If you don't believe the Bible and the words of Jesus to be true, how can you say you are a Christian? It's not my intention to sound hostile, I'm just asking."
I'm glad you are not hostile. I wish more were like you: more discussion and less preaching. I call myself a Christian because I use the supposed words of Jesus as a "guide" for spreading fairness and happiness. His life and teachings bring me so much joy. I do not, however, interpret His words literally and punctuate nearly every thought with "Our Lord Jesus said so" or something to that effect. What a narrow world it would be if I did that. There's so much joy and goodness all around the us to experience. All we have to do is (like Jesus) open our minds to the hope of possibility without categorization, semantics and labels.
We are no longer a Christian nation. Sin is condoned by the masses now; we live as if God did not exist as evidenced by crisis of marriage, divorce, instant gratification, abortion, unions between same sexes, work ethic, etc. This country has given itself over to Satan. One-half of all Catholics voted for Obama which means that one-half of all Catholics believe that murder of defenseless and innocent souls, the most foulest of all sins and punishable by death of the soul, is irrelevant. Just sayin’ and signin’ off.
Maybe half of Catholics aren't one-issue voters. And to the one previous anonymous poster, what if the pilot was a Muslim? Egads.
It's radical extremists and oh so narrow-minded individuals (such as poster) above that have a higher percentage of individuals landing in prison due to the murders, hate crimes, abuse, etc. they commit. It's a statistical, scientific fact. Ironic, huh? Just sayin' and signin' off.
You have "statistical facts" showing narrow-minded individuals are more likely to be criminals? Huh?
How do they quantify the number of criminals who are "narrow-minded"?
So? What if he was a Jew? Or an African American? Lord, have mercy, if he were an African American. Don't you know their IQ is not sufficient to be a pilot?
Wow... brant... sorry to step on your toes there...
The pilot is a Jew. Jesus was born in the city of David...remember?
Excellent. You got me on that one.
Well, what you don't recognize, or refuse to accept as even a possibility, is that maybe you're wrong and Jesus is not the true savior. Maybe it's somebody that another religion deifies, or nobody at all. Not everyone believes as you do, but they may be the ones who are correct. You have no way of knowing, just blind faith.
So if I'm wrong, and there's no God, then I just lie in a box. But if I'm right, and you're wrong. . . the consequences are not the greatest.
I'm not trying to convert you. Just tell you the truth about what I believe. It's the job of the Holy Spirit to convict you and bring you to Jesus. May God bless you in your journey to find truth.
If I'm out back with my dogs some morning, and the Big Guy parts the clouds, comes down and personally recruits me for the "team," I'm in. Other than that, it's not likely to happen. At age 50, I've pretty much been over all of the possibilities and decided I believe in none. I went to church when I was a youngster, and I always felt that I was being encouraged to jump on board with some sort of Nigerian lottery scheme or something. Even as a 12-year-old, my reasoning and analysis prevented me from blindly accepting the story I was being told.
Well, it's nice to know that this isn't some sort of rebellious "phase" I am going through... I think for most people who believe as you do, their story is pretty similar... It just never struck me as "real"...
I get my stats from Fox news...that makes it true. ;-) Honestly, I think I have to agree about the "oh so narrow-minded" comment. I think the person was trying to paint the picture of those with extremist, absolute, narrow-minds not just those like myself who will not open her mind to the possibility of a key party. I used to work in public policy law representing the state/federal prison systems, etc. Many government and non-profit studies done. Deep narrow-mindedness (coupled of course with other factors) does in fact lead to extremism a catalyst for most violent acts.
“Deep narrow-mindedness (coupled of course with other factors) does in fact lead to extremism, a catalyst for most violent acts.”
Whatever. You precisely make my point, although I think your prison data is nebulous. Narrow-mindedness, or intolerance, of the unborn, does indeed lead to violence. Narrow-mindedness in Hitler’s Germany led to violence against the Jews, the homosexuals, the mentally handicapped, the Gypsies, as well. We, as a nation, have become intolerant of that which causes us inconvenience or of that which is repugnant to us. Pregnant and don’t want the rugrat? No prob. Did the test show an extra chromosome? No prob. Has that feeble grandma who keeps soiling herself become a nuisance? No prob.
I guess we should go back and define narrow-minded...
I find it reprehensible that someone would use abortion as a form of birth control, but I have no problem with parents who find their fetus is horribly deformed and decide to end the pregnancy. There's a lot of gray area in between that people will always disagree about. The chance of abortion being totally outlawed as long as any of us are alive is most likely zero. On the other end of the spectrum, I think assisted suicide will gain support in the years to come. I believe voters in Washington state just approved a measure allowing physician-assisted suicide for terminally ill people. It's humane, and if that's what the sick person wants, why not allow it, rather than force some poor soul who is in extreme pain to put a gun to their temple?
Narrow-mindedness considers a Down Syndrome baby to be hideously deformed.
Is there any excuse ever for an abortion?
Some people would choose to abort after a diagnosis of Down syndrome. Others would not. I will echo Ellipses' question to you, Anonymous. Under what circumstances, if any, should a woman be permitted to end a pregnancy?
I will defer to the Catholic Church:
"First, while the Church opposes all direct abortions, it does not condemn procedures which result, indirectly, in the loss of the unborn child as a "secondary effect." For example, if a mother is suffering an ectopic pregnancy (a baby is developing in her fallopian tube, not the womb), a doctor may remove the fallopian tube as therapeutic treatment to prevent the mother’s death. The infant will not survive long after this, but the intention of the procedure and its action is to preserve the mother’s life. It is not a direct abortion.
There also occur, very rarely, situations in which, in order to save the mother’s life, the child needs to be delivered early. But this can be done safely with a normal, induced delivery, or a caesarean section.
The argument for killing disabled unborn children is not a medical one either. There are no disabilities which require directly killing the child in order to save the mother. In fact, disabled children can usually be delivered with no more complications than a child without disabilities. The argument for abortion in these cases is ideological, a belief that it is better—for the child, the family and the whole society—for the child to die than to live with a disability."
Alright, i have some work to get done, so I guess I will take that leap and cut straight to the elephant in the room... 13 year old girl is raped by her dad and ends up pregnant.
kill the rapist...not the baby
why is it liberals want to kill the baby who is completely innocent, and give the rapist therapy?
chop his wee wee off and no one will have to worry about him again.
My wife and I just completed a pregnancy 14 days ago by having our son... everything... from the morning sickness to the misery of the third trimester to the trauma of delivery (c-section or natural) is not something I would wish on anyone who didn't WANT to do it...
It's nice to see you projecting upon me what you THINK i believe...
I would skin the father with a broken bottle...
But I would NEVER make it illegal for that girl to rid herself of that burden.
I'm not projecting on you what I think you believe. I'm simply telling you what I believe. I then posed a question to you. It's obvious to me that you believe in abortion. I'm not daft.
congrats on your baby. Good thing for him/her you wanted it.
I was referring to the "liberals want to kill the baby and give the rapist therapy"
Thanks for the congrats!
Glad we had the choice... even if we'd never use it
Again, the 'liberals' part....I was posing a question...not intimating that you believed it.
Pregnancy resulting from incest is such a rare occurrence, especially since the advent of emergency contraception, that it is a red herring thrown out by the other side to make them look compassionate toward women. I personally think that it would be perfectly morally acceptable for rape victims to use medication to prevent ovulation.
Congratulations on the birth of your child. God bless you and your family and surround this precious one with His love and protection always.
I have come to the realization that the fact that abortion is legal is not where our focus should be.
The fact that so many women choose it is the problem. We need to help these women understand that it is a baby that is growing inside of them, not a blob of tissue. Also, instead of picketing with signs, we need to provide support for them (physical, a place to live if necessary, emotional, spiritual, and financial).
I think most of the abortions are for birth control and it's because the women are not well informed about what is happening inside of them.
When I had my ultrasounds at 12 weeks, I saw my baby 'dancing' around in there. (more like bouncing really)and my husband said, "Wow, look at our baby." Not, "Wow, look at the glob of tissue."
I know women who have had abortions who live with regret and nightmares and fertility issues (even 20 years later).
So the issue is not whether it's legal or illegal. Fine, keep it legal.Let's inform women of the truth so they can make INFORMED decisions about their bodies and their babies.
Thank you! That last one is a great point... but if a woman chooses abortion... you can't follow her around for the rest of her life calling her a baby killer.
Oh, and "late term" abortions are equally as rare... and actually MORE justified than most regular abortions... but they are also trotted out to make pro-choicers look like monsters.
On the contrary, my friends who have had abortions...I would never call them murderers...trust me, they are tortured enough. I pray for their healing and try to comfort them.
Late term abortions...I don't know any statistics about how many actually occur, but I do know that they say it is only half of 1% of late term abortions that are performed are for the mother's health. It would stand to reason that if a woman makes it that far in her pregnancy, she should see it through (referring to those that just change their minds).
Pregnancy is a joyous thing, but also a scarey one. I first got pregnant when I was 30. I was married to a man who had a great job, we had a home, support of family, etc. I will still TERRIFIED. (what's going to happen, is this going to hurt, can i be a good mom, etc.)
So I cannot imagine what it would be like to be pregnant at 14, have been kicked out by my parents, no job, no husband, boyfriend dumps me, no money, etc. Those girls must be scared out of their wits. That's where the church, community, etc. needs to step up and help these girls. We don't need to condemn them, we need to love them.
On late term abortions, I believe that only 1/10th of 1% of all abortions can be considered late term... a small number of them are for the mother's health... but some of the circumstances surrounding the rest are really hard to get your mind around... In some cases, chromosomal damage is found by a late test... in other cases, the circumstances are sickening... Some of them are victims of abuse who are emotionally or mentally incapable of connecting the changes in their bodies with the fact that they are pregnant. Some of the women are mentally retarded and don't know that they are pregnant. Some of the women are severely mentally ill and homeless... They only get medical attention when someone calls the cops to say that there is a pregnant woman talking to a garbage can... they get medicated, become lucid, and opt for an abortion.
Human decency generally keeps this horrific procedure (late term abortion) to a minimum...
The problem is that if you limit it to certain scenarios (rape, incest, health of the mother)... then suddenly, for some reason, i imagine there would be an explosion in the stats for rape, incest, and mortal maternal danger...
You are right.
From the Catholic Church: "There also occur, very rarely, situations in which, in order to save the mother’s life, the child needs to be delivered early. But this can be done safely with a normal, induced delivery, or a caesarean section."
What if the pregnancy is in its early stages, before the fetus has any viability, and carrying the fetus any further threatens the life of the mother? Does the church suggest a C-section to remove the undeveloped fetus?
That's a good question. I have no clue what the Catholic church would suggest.
I was very afraid during my second and third pregnancies that such a thing might happen. I am pro-life, but I need to be here to raise the children I have already. I told myself I would still not have an abortion or any procedure which would harm the baby. Thankfully, I was never put to the test.
I have 3 incredibly healthy kids.
What do the non-catholics say?
It's hard for me, personally, to fathom someone voluntarily abandoning the family they have by refusing to abort a fetus when they're faced with a medical situation that could very well kill them. That's one heckuva long way to go to make a stand on principle.
Yep. It's called putting you money where your mouth is, I guess.
It's called screwing your other kids.
And potentially leaving behind motherless children, a widower, grieving parents, etc. It seems a rather selfish decision, to me. At least they'd have those fond memories of a true martyr.
Like I said, I was never put into that situation. I realize one can say they would do one thing, but if faced with the decision.... ?
I guess it's true that one can never say never, one way or the other, but I'm pretty sure that if I were a pregnant woman in that situation, it would take me about five seconds to opt for an abortion. But unless something really strange happens, I'm not going to be faced with that dilemma.
Life is full of difficult decisions. For example; using aborted babies for stem cell research. Again, someone can be pro-life and against abortion, but if one has a child with a disease, they would be the first in line for the cure found through the stem cell research.
I am pro life and against abortion...I'm just saying...there are many different circumstances we face every day on this planet. One of the many reasons I choose to trust in God.
I don't know if you have children or not...and I know it's different for a man than for a woman (duh) but the baby was never 'real' to my husband until she was born and he SAW her. Even the ultrasounds didn't make the baby real to him. But from the moment I found out I was pregnant, I loved that baby. I don't know if there's anything that could have made me give her up. And thank God I never had to face that decision.
I don’t know the statistics of mothers choosing to sacrifice their lives for the lives of their unborn children and leaving family to mourn them, but probably the figures are miniscule. I would posit that this is just another ridiculous red herring tossed out to deflect from the heinous figure of approximately 50 million abortions in the United States since 1973. The souls of 50 million innocent babies who were murdered by abortion and whose mothers and fathers refused them life are the martyrs to the truth of His love and salvation. But, I think we are beginning to hear whimpering from Him about this holocaust as far as our nation is concerned.
Whimpering? Really? How so?
50 million... and every one of them was probably a tough decision... what does legislation do to 50 million? It's like outlawing farts.
You're comparing a baby to a fart? Did I misunderstand or are you truly a moron?
No... i am saying that the EFFICACY of outlawing something so prevalent is like outlawing farting...
wow, thank God they can't outlaw farting.... my husband would rot in prison.
I'd get the death penalty.
I used to be a homosexual. It's all I've known. The thought of being with a woman never crossed my mind. Companionship, love, intimacy and sex with a man was amazing to me. The best I've ever known!! Through my years as a member of my father baseball team, high school and college football player and coach I found many like me. I was so happy and thought I led a good life. On the flip-side I do not want to live a life of ridicule and scorn from heterosexuals and biblical beliefs. I do not want to be different. I want to go to heaven. Too many people have told me that I would go to hell if I continued on this path. Four years ago I decided to sleep only with women. I'm still grossed out each time but I know that it is right. Whenever I'm unhappy and feel alone I tell myself that it'll be worth it in the end.
I hope someday that you'll quit listening to other people and be comfortable with who you are. Life's too short to do otherwise.
A Jew goes into the temple and begins to weep and wail, rending his clothing. God takes pity on him and says, "What's wrong, my son?"
The Jew says: "My son went to the Holy Land and came back a Christian."
God says, "I can relate to that!"
Anonymous who used to be homosexual said: "Four years ago I decided to sleep only with women. I'm still grossed out each time but I know that it is right. Whenever I'm unhappy and feel alone I tell myself that it'll be worth it in the end."
I guess people who recommended against homosexuality forgot to tell you that if you sleep with women without being married to them, you'll still go to hell. Gives whole new meaning to the phrase, "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."
The Christianity that I have always been taught is that it's not any particular sin that keeps one from Heaven. We all sin. And my sin is no better or worse than yours or my neighbors. Homosexuality or promiscuity is no worse than telling a little white lie.
We all sin. We're human. The Bible says "We all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" (Romans 3:23)
Christianity teaches that if someone wants to go to Heaven, they must believe that Jesus died on the cross to be the sacrifice for our sins, and ask Him to come into your heart and forgive you.
It's not about religion, it's about relationship with Jesus. It's the people of Christianity who put sin on a sliding scale, and say that one is worse than another. But in the end, sin is sin. And Jesus can cleanse us from every one of them.
To the poster who said they were a homosexual and tried to change...I wish you many blessings in your journey. Jesus loves you and wants you with Him in Heaven (just like all of us). You are special to Him (just like all of us).
There are some great churches here in the area. Personally, I go to a great southern baptist church in Peters called lakeside baptist. I would love to have you come sometime. You would be more than welcome. :o)
Anonymous said: "Christianity teaches that if someone wants to go to Heaven, they must believe that Jesus died on the cross to be the sacrifice for our sins, and ask Him to come into your heart and forgive you."
Which leaves out a passle o' folks who don't think that way or who have never heard and never will hear of Jesus. I have never yet been told to my satisfaction how a loving Christian god can write off vast portions of humanity who have never had access to "the good news." I've even been told that god knew who would reject Christianity, so conveniently arranged or all these people never to have access to it. Isn't that predestination? If it is, what happened to free will? If it is, whay even be born?
That's the problem I have with any religion that says, "Ours is the only way."
And even if you choose to believe the Bible, which parts are we supposed to take literally? If you believe in the words of Christ, there are two great commandments: Love God & love your neighbor as yourself. I don't see any qualifications of the words "love" and "neighbor."
I think those worthy people from BEFORE jesus got a pass... they had to hang out in purgatory (even Adam spent about 4k years in the big P) until JC went on his Harrowing spree between Friday and Sunday...
About 15 years ago, a missionary went to a remote area I believe it was Papua New Guinea, and met up with a tribe who had "never heard the good news", as you put it. The chief told him about how he had a dream a few years before that about the one and only God. This God in his dream told him He was the One that made him, his bones, his blood, all of that. In the dream, God told him that He would send someone to tell him and his people about Himself and His Son.
They worshiped that God (the God) and knew when the missionary came to tell them about Jesus that he was sent by him.
God reveals Himself and His Son to people who have never been 'told or preached to'. They just have to be open to it.
"That's the problem I have with any religion that says, "Ours is the only way."
Some might believe grass is purple, some orange, but the bottom line is there is a truth. The truth is, the grass is green. (when you take care of it anyway)but you get the point.
And we determine the color of the grass based on... consensus?
As of 2007, 66% of the world believed that Jesus Christ was NOT the son of God...
To the sensitive person who "used" to be a homosexual I wish you the best but please do not take everything that is presented to you to the nth degree. Follow your bliss. Life is too short to be unhappy. You sound quite religious (I think) so follow, say, the ten commandments, be good to others, be fair and for God's sake be happy. None of us, regardless of faith, truly knows what's out there after death. I think too many of us make excuses, close our minds and paint ugly pictures to rationalize what we cannot realistically understand. This will undoubtedly get a response but I am a life-long, God-fearing, church-going, Jesus-loving, community-volunteering, relationship-driven, monogamous, masculine, sweaty man-loving, healthy, hot, educated homosexual. I guarantee I'll be in Heaven way before most of these bitches. You know why, I have faith. Jesus told me. That's a fact! Get your life back my friend. See you in Heaven...I'll save you a seat.
Applause
God spoke directly to the tribal chief in Papua New Guinea and told him to expect a visit from the missionary? Is he the same tribal chief who was beamed up by aliens and subjected to an anal probe. Or was he the one that got the great snapshots of Sasquatch?
I think I have a little man-crush on that dude
"anonymous" above.
I think I have a little man-crush on that dude
"anonymous" above.
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